James Douglas in Spanien

Dieses Thema im Forum "Persönlichkeiten im Mittelalter" wurde erstellt von El Quijote, 2. Februar 2019.

  1. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Der schottische Adelige und Vorkämpfer der schottischen Unabhängigkeit von England im Dienste von Robert the Bruce starb 1330 in Teba bei der Belagerung des Castillo de la Estrella von Teba in einem Scharmützel gegen ein nasridisches Entsatzheer aus Málaga. Eigentlich befand er sich auf dem Weg nach Jerusalem, wo er das Herz des 1329 verstorbenen Robert I. hinbringen sollte. John Barbour erzählt 45 Jahre später im Versepos The Brus folgendes (Auszug! 239 - 520):

    Quhen the Lord Dowglas, on this wis, ___ quhen = when, 'als'
    Had undirtane so hye empris, 240 ___ hye? = high?
    As the gud Kyngis hert till ber ___ ber?
    On Goddis fayis apon wer, ___ fayis? wer?
    Prisit for his enpris wes he. ___ prisit?
    And the Kingis infermite
    Woxe mair and mair, quhill at the last 245 ___ woxe? quhill = will
    The dulfull dede approchit fast.
    And quhen he had gert till hym do ___ gert?
    All that gud Cristin man fell to,
    With werray repentans he gaf
    The gast, that God till hevin couth haf, 250
    Emang his chosyn folk till be
    In joy, solace, and angell gle.
    And fra his folk wist he wes ded,
    The sorow rais fra sted to sted.
    Thair mycht men se men rif thar hare, 255
    And cumly knychtis gret full sar,
    And thar nevis oft sammyn driff,
    And as wode men thair clathes rif,
    Regratand his worthy bounte,
    His wit, strynth, and his honeste; 260
    And, our all, the gret cumpany
    That he oft maid thame curtesly.
    “All our defens,” thai said, “allas!
    “And he that all our confort was,
    “Our wit, and all our governyng, 265
    “Is brought, allas! heir till ending.
    “His worschip and his mekill mycht
    “Maid all that war with him so wicht,
    “That thai mycht nevir abaysit be,
    “Quhill forouth thame thai mycht him se. 270
    “Allas! quhat sall we do or say?
    “For in liff quhill he lestit ay,
    “With all our fais dred war we:
    “And in-till mony fer cuntre
    “Of our worschip ran the renoune: 275
    “And that wes all for his persoune.”
    With sic wordis thai maid thair mayne;
    And sekirly wonder wes nane:
    For better governour than he
    Mycht in na cuntre fundyn be. 280
    I hop that nane that is on lif
    The lamentacioune suld discrif
    That thai folk for thair lord maid.
    And quhen thai lang thus sorowit had,
    And he debowalit wes clenly, [293] 285
    And bawlmyt eyne full richly,
    And the worthy lord Dowglas [295]
    His hert, as it forspokyn was,
    Has resavit in gret dantee,
    With gret fair and solempnite [298] 290
    Thai have him had till Dunfermlyne, [285]
    And hym solempnly erdit syne,
    And in a fair towne in the queyr.
    Bischoppes and prelatis that thar weir
    Assolyheit hym, quhen the servis 295
    Wes done as thai couth best devis; [290]
    And syne, apon the toder day,
    Sary and wa ar went thar way. [292]
  2. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Quhen at the gud King beriit was,
    The Erll of Murreff, Schir Thomas, 300
    Tuk all the lande in governyng;
    All obeysit till his bidding.
    And the gud lord of Dowglas syne
    Gert mak ane cas of silvir fyne
    Anamalyt throu subtilite: 305
    Thar-in the Kyngis hert did he,
    And ay about his hals it bare,
    And fast him bownyt for his fare.
    His testament devisit he,
    And ordanit how his land suld be 310
    Governit, quhill his agane-cummyng,
    Of frendis; and all othir thing,
    That till him partenit ony wis,
    With sa gude forsicht and sa wis,
    Or his furth-passyng, ordanit he, 315
    That na thing mycht amendit be.
    And quhen that he his leif has tane,
    To schip till Berwik is he gane;
    And with ane nobill cumpany
    Of knychtis and of squyary, 320
    He put him thar in-to the se.
    A lang way furthwarde salyt he;
    Betuyx Cornwale and Bretanyhe
    He salit, and left the Grunye of Spanyhe
    On north half hym; and held thar way 325
    Quhill till Savill the Graunt com thai.
    Bot gretly war his men and he
    Travaled with tempest on the se;
    Bot, thouch thai gretly travalit war,
    Haill and feir thai cummyn ar. 330
    Thai arivit at gret Savill;
    And eftir, in a litill quhill,
    Thar hors to land thai drew ilkane,
    And in the toune has herbery tane.

    He hym contenyt richt richly; 335
    For he had a fayr cumpany,
    And gold eneuch for till despend.
    The Kyng all soyne eftir hym send,
    And him richt weill resavit he,
    And profferit hym in gret plente 340
    Gold and tresour, hors and armyng;
    Bot he wald tak thar-of na thyng;
    For, he said, he tuk that viage
    To pass in-till his pilgrimage
    On Goddis fais, that his travale 345
    Micht eftir till his saull avale.
    And sen he wist that he had were
    With Sarazenis, he wald dwell ther,
    And help him at his mycht lely.
    The King him thankit curtesly, 350
    And betaucht him gud men that were
    Weill knawin of that landis wer,
    And the maner thar-of alsua.
    Syne till his innys can he ga.

    Quhen that the King him levit had, 355
    A weill gret sojourne thar he mad.
    Knychtis that com of fer cuntre
    Com in gret rowtis hym to se,
    And honorit him full gretumly.
    And our all men mast soveranly, 360
    The Inglis knychtis that war thar
    Honour and cumpany him bar.

    Emang thame wes ane strange knycht,
    That wes haldyn so woundir wicht,
    That for ane of the gude wes he 365
    Prisit of all the Cristianite.
    Sa fast till-hewyn wes all his face
    That it our all neir wemmyt was.
    Or he the lord Dowglas had seyne,
    He wend his face had wemmyt beyne, 370
    Bot nevir ane hurt in it had he.
    Quhen he unwemmyt can it se,
    He said that he had gret ferly
    That sic a knycht and sa worthy,
    And prisit of sa gret bounte, 375
    Mycht in the face unwemmyt be.
    And he ansuerd thar-till mekly,
    And said, “Love God, all tym had I
    “Handis myne hede for till were.”
    Quha wald tak tent to this ansuer 380
    Suld se in it undirstanding,
    That, and he that maid askyng,
    Had had handis to wer, his face,
    That, for defalt of fens so was
    To-fruschit into placis ser, 385
    Suld haf, may fall, left haill and fer.
    The gud knychtis, that than war by,
    Prisit this ansuer gretumly;
    For it wes maid with meke speking,
    And had richt hye undirstanding. 390

    Apon this maner still thai lay,
    Quhill throu the cuntre thai herd say
    That the hey King of Balmeryne,
    With mony a mudy Sarasyne,
    Wes enterit in the land off Spanyhe 395
    All haill the cuntre till demanyhe.
    The Kyng of Spanyhe, on othir party,
    Gaderit his host delyverly,
    And delt thame in-to battellis thre.
    And to the lord Dowglas gaf he 400
    The vaward for to leid and steir;
    All haill the strangeris with him weir,
    And the gret mastir of Saint Jak
    The tothir battell gert he tak.
    The reirward maid him-selvyn thar. 405
    Thusgat devisit, furth thai war
    To mete thair fayis, that in battale
    Arayit, reddy to assale,
    Com agane thame full sturdely.
    The Dowglas than, that wes worthy, 410
    Quhen he to thame of his ledyng
    Had maid ane fair amonestyng
    Till do weill and na dede to dreid,
    For hevynnis blis suld be thair meid,
    Gif that thai deit in Goddis servis; 415
    Than, as gud werriours and wis,
    With thame stoutly assemblit he.
    Thar mycht men felloune fechting se;
    For thai war all wicht and hardy
    That war on the Cristyn party; 420
    So fast thai faucht, with all thar mayne,
    That of Sarasenys war mony slayne;
    The-quhethir, with mony fell fachoune,
    Mony Cristyn thai dang thar doune.

    _But ere they joyned in battell, *421
    What Dowglas did, I sall you tell.
    The Bruce’s Heart, that on his brest
    Was hinging, in the field he kest,
    Upon a stane-cast and well more: *425
    And said, “Now passe thou foorth before,
    As thou wast wont in field to be,
    And I sall follow, or els die.”
    And sa he did withoutten ho,
    He faught even while he came it to, *430
    And tooke it up in great daintie;
    And ever in field this used he._ *432
  3. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Bot at the last the lord Douglas, 425
    And the gret rout that with hym was,
    Pressit fast the Sarasenys swa
    That thai haly the bak can ta.
    And thai chassit with all thar mayn,
    And mony in the chas has slayn. 430
    So fer chassit the lord Dowglas,
    With few folk, that he passit wes
    All the folk that wes chassand then.
    He had nocht with him atour ten
    Of all men that war with him thar. 435
    Quhen he saw all reparit war
    Toward his host than turnit he.
    And quhen the Saryzynys gan se
    That the chasseris turnyt agane,
    Thai relyit with mekill mayne. 440
    And as the gud lorde Dowglas,
    As I said air, reparand was,
    So saw he, richt besyd him ner,
    Quhar that Schir Willyhame de Sancler
    With a gret rout enveremyt was. 445
    He wes anoyit, and said; “Allas!
    “Yhone worthy knycht will soyn be ded,
    “Bot he haf help throu our manhed.
    “God biddis us help him in gret hy,
    “Sen that we ar so neir him by. 450
    “And God wat weill our entent is
    “Till lif and de in his servis;
    “His will in all thing do sall we,
    “Sall na perell eschevit be
    “Quhill he be put out of yhone payne, 455
    “Or than we all be with hym slayn.”
    With that with spurris spedely
    Thai strak the hors, and in gret hy
    Amang the Saracenys soyne thai raid,
    And rowme about thame haf thai maid. 460
    Thai dang on fast with all thair mycht,
    And feill of thame to ded has dicht.
    Gretar defens maid nevir sa quhoyne
    Agane so feill, as thai have doyne.
    Quhill thai mycht lest to gif battale. 465
    Bot mycht no worschip thar avale
    That tym, for ilkan war slayn thar;
    For Sarasynys sa mony war
    That thai war tuenty neir for ane.
    The gud lord Douglas thar wes slane, 470
    And Wilyhame Sancler syne alsua;
    And other worthy knychtis twa,
    Schir Robert Logan hat the tane,
    And the tothir Walter Logane;
    Quhar our Lord, for his mekill mycht, 475
    Thar saulys have to hevynnis hycht!

    The gud lord Douglas thus wes ded;
    And the Sarasenys in that sted
    Abaid no mair, bot held thar way;
    Thai knychtis ded thar levit thai. 480
    Sum of the lord Douglassis men,
    That thar lord ded had fundyn then,
    Yheid weill neir wood for dule and wa.
    Lang quhile our hym thai sorowit swa,
    And with gret dule syne hame him bar. 485
    The Kyngis hert have thai fundyn thar,
    And that haym with thame have thai tane,
    And ar toward thair innys gane
    With greting and with evill cher;
    Thair sorow angyr wes to her. 490
    And quhen of Keth gud Schir Wilyhame,
    That all that day had beyn at hame--
    For at sa gret myschef wes he,
    That he come nocht to the journee,
    For his arme wes brokyne in twa-- 495
    Quhen he that folk sic dule saw ma,
    He askyt quhat it wes in hy.
    And thai him tauld all opynly,
    How that thair douchty lord wes slayn
    With Sarazynys that releyt agayn. 500
    And quhen he wyst that it was sua,
    Atour all other he wes mast wa,
    And maid so woundir evill cher
    That all wounderit that by him wer.
    Bot till tell of thair sorowyng 505
    Anoyis, and helpis litill thing.
    Men may weill wit, thouch nane thaim tell,
    How angry, sorowfull, and how fell
    Is till tyne sic ane lord as he
    Till thame that war of his menyhe. 510
    For he wes swete, and debonar,
    And weill couth tret his frendis far,
    And his fais richt felonly
    Stonay, throu his gret chevelry.
    The-quhethir of litill effer wes he, 515
    Bot our all thing he lufit lawte;
    At tresoune growyt he so gretly,
    That na tratour mycht be hym by,
    That he mycht wit, na he suld be
    Weill punyst of his cruelte. 520
    Wie ihr seht, der Text ist nicht ganz einfach zu verstehen, halt Scots - eine Parallelentwicklung zum Englischen aus dem Angelsächsischen - des 14. Jhdts. Manche Worte scheinen eine der ersten Lautverschiebung nicht unähnliche Entwicklung gemacht zu haben und scheinen so dem Deutschen näher als dem Englischen zu sein, manches ist gut verständlich, manches habe ich noch nicht durchdringen können.
    Vielleicht könnt ihr mir helfen, den Text zu emtschlüsseln?

    Nach Douglas' Tod bei Teba jedenfalls wurde das Herz von Robert the Bruce zurück nach Schottland gebracht und in der Melrose Abbey bestattet. Vor einigen Jahren fanden Archäologen eine Bleibox, jedoch nicht am Hochaltar der Kirche sondern im Kapitelhaus der Abtei. Man vermutet, dass im Zuge der vielen englischen Raids in der Region oder der Reformation das Herz hier versteckt wurde und schließlich nicht mehr geborgen.
  4. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Interessant finde ich auch diese Stelle, Vers 361: The Inglis knychtis that war thar - "die englischen Ritter die dort waren" - sind das Engländer, die sich im spanischen Lager befanden? Barbour wird doch damit kaum die Leute von James Douglas gemeint haben?!
  5. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Quhen the Lord Dowglas, on this wis, ___ quhen = when, 'als'
    Had undirtane so hye empris, 240 ___ hye? = high?
    As the gud Kyngis hert till ber ___ ber?
    On Goddis fayis apon wer, ___ fayis? wer?
    Prisit for his enpris wes he. ___ prisit?
    And the Kingis infermite
    Woxe mair and mair, quhill at the last 245 ___ woxe? quhill = will
    The dulfull dede approchit fast.

    woxe = wuchs? Kann das sein? Statt grow?

    Als der Lord Douglas auf diese Weise
    den ?hohen? Auftrag erfüllt hatte
    als des guten Königs Herz bis ???
    auf Gottes ??? drauf war
    und die Krankheit des Königs
    wuchs mehr und mehr mehr und mehr letzter Wille?
    der schmerzvolle Tod kam schnelle.
  6. Chan

    Chan Aktives Mitglied

    Als Lord Douglas (wahrhaftig / auf diese Weise?)
    eine so eilige Unternehmung auszuführen hatte (ausführen musste),
    um das Herz des guten Königs
    zu Gottes Feinden zu tragen (als Held, heldenhaft?),
    wurde er für seine Unternehmung gepriesen.

    Zeile 240 scheint nicht auszusagen, dass das Unternehmen (oder der "Auftrag", wie du schreibst), das Herz des Königs zu Gottes Feinden zu tragen, schon ausgeführt ist, da der König noch lebt. "Had undirtane" müsste also "hatte auszuführen" bedeuten im Sinn einer zukünftigen, geplanten Unternehmung.

    (on this wis = wahrhaftig, gewiss / PS. Oder besser doch, wie du schreibst: "auf diese Weise")
    (hye = eilig, hastig)
    (ber = tragen)
    (fayis = Feinde)
    (wer = Mann/Held)
    (prisit = gepriesen)

    (apon/upon wer = als Held, heldenhaft?)

    Und der König wurde immer kränker,
    als endlich der elende Tod schnell nahte.

    (quhill=quhen = als)
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 2. Februar 2019
  7. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Fayis kommt in dem Auszug zwei Mal vor, V. 242 und 407.

    242: On Goddis fayis apon wer,
    407: To mete thair fayis, that in battale

    Ist das face? 'Gesicht', 'Angesicht'?
  8. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Feinde? Auf ihre Feinde in der Schlacht zu treffen (407) wäre ganz sinnvoll. Hast du ein WB für das Scots des 14. Jhdts.?
  9. Chan

    Chan Aktives Mitglied

    Hier zum Beispiel (foe = fayis):

    A Concise Dictionary of Middle English eBook

    Foo, adj. and sb., hostile, guilty, a foe, PP, C2; fo
    , PP, S2; uo, S2; fa,. S; faa, S2; foon, pl., S3, C2, G, PP; fon, PP, S2; fan, S; uan, S; foin, HD; foyn, MD; fo, S; foos, PP, C2; faas, S2; faes, S2; fais, S2; fays, S3; fayis, S2.
  10. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    quhill = while
  11. Chan

    Chan Aktives Mitglied

    Das von mir verwendete "als" ist nicht sehr verschieden von "während" (while), denn beide Ausdrücke verweisen auf die Gleichzeitigkeit von Haupt- und Nebensatz. "While I was in London" kann mit "Als ich in London war" und mit "Während ich in London war" übersetzt werden, wobei der Kontext entscheidet.

    Im "Middle English Reader" wird "quhill" sowohl mit "quhen" (als) als auch mit "while" (während) in Verbindung gebracht und zusätzlich mit "until".

    Quhen ; Quhill. See \Vhan(ne),
    (vhan=when= als, Anm. Chan)
    Whil(e), Whyl(e), Wyl, Qu-
    hill (x), conj. while, I 8, vn
    56, xiv c 29. 36, &c. ; until, vi
    168, X 32, 67, 197; quhill pat,
    until, *x 63.

    Im gegebenen Kontext sind also drei Übersetzungen möglich, wobei mir das "bis" jetzt doch am plausibelsten erscheint:

    "And the Kingis infermite
    Woxe mair and mair, quhill at the last
    The dulfull dede approchit fast."

    Und der König wurde immer kränker,
    während endlich der elende Tod schnell nahte.

    Und der König wurde immer kränker,
    als endlich der elende Tod schnell nahte.

    Und der König wurde immer kränker,
    bis endlich der elende Tod schnell nahte.
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 2. Februar 2019
  12. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    And quhen he had gert till hym do
    All that gud Cristin man fell to,
    With werray repentans he gaf
    The gast, that God till hevin couth haf,
    Emang his chosyn folk till be
    In joy, solace, and angell gle.

    In diesem kurzen Abschnitt findet sich dreimal till und ich weiß es nicht zu fassen und übersetze es gewissermaßen jedes Mal anders:

    Und als er ihn dies zu tun gemacht hatte
    All die guten Christenleute fielen zu?
    mit trauernden Kriegern gab er
    das Leben, das Gott im? Himmel haben könne
    unter seinem gewählten Volk würde? er sein
    in Freude, Trost und Engelsang
  13. Chan

    Chan Aktives Mitglied

    Es gibt eine sprachlich aktualisierte englische Version des kompletten Textes. Die von dir zitierten Passagen finden sich im letzten, dem 20. Kapitel, betitelt "The Death of the Bruce".

    Das "had undirtane" bedeutet dementsprechend "had undertaken = hatte übernommen" (nämlich die Aufgabe der Unternehmung).

    Das "hye" bedeutet hier tatsächlich "hoch" und nicht "eilig", wie ich, irregeleitet durch das Chaucer Glossary ("hye = to hasten, hurry"), angenommen hatte. Das "apon wer" bedeutet "in den Krieg" (wer = war/Krieg), was ich aber auf Heldentum bezogen habe. Außer diesen beiden Unzulänglichkeiten treffen meine Übersetzungen einigermaßen zu (auch das "bis" für "quhill").

    Chaucer Glossary:


    Der aktualisierte Bruce-Text:

    The Bruce


    When the Lord Douglas had thus undertaken the high enterprise of bearing the good king's heart to the war against God's enemies, he was praised for his undertaking. And the king's infirmity waxed greater and greater, till at last the sad hour of death drew very near. And when he had caused to be done to him all that behoves a good Christian, with true repentance he gave up the ghost, and God took him to heaven, to be among His chosen people in joy, pleasure, and angel song.

    And when his people knew that King Robert was dead, the sound of sorrow went from place to place. Men were to be seen tearing their hair, and seemly knights right sorely weeping, and wringing their hands, and rending their clothes like men who were mad, grieving for his valiant nobleness, his wisdom, strength, and honesty, and, above all, the great companionship that of his courtesy he often made them.

    "Alas," they said, "all our defence, with him that was our comfort, our wisdom, and our leadership, is here brought to an end. His valour and his great strength made all doughty who were with him, and they could never be dismayed while they saw him before them. Alas! what shall we do or say? Ever while he lived we were feared by all our foes, and the renown of our valour ran through many a far country. All this was due to him alone!"

    With such words they made their moan, and of a surety it was no marvel; for in no country could a better ruler be found. I wot that none living could describe the lamentation that these people made for their lord.

    And when they had long sorrowed in this fashion, and he had been disembowelled, and richly embalmed, and the valiant Lord Douglas, as was before agreed, had with great honour received his heart, they bore him with much pomp and solemnity to Dunfermline, and solemnly buried him in a splendid tomb in the choir. Bishops and prelates absolved him there, and the service was performed as they could best devise. Then, on the next day, they went their way sad and sorrowful. [In the early years of the nineteenth century, when the Abbey Church of Dunfermline was being restored, the workmen came upon the remains of a splendid tomb in the spot which tradition assigned to the grave of Bruce. Within, amid fragments of cloth of gold, lay the skeleton of a tall man, and the fact that the breastbone had been sawn through confirmed the poet's account of the removal of the king's heart. Sir Walter Scott, who was present at the re-interment, describes the incident in his 'Tales of a Grandfather'. See also the Report by Sir Henry Jardine in the 'Transactions of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland'.

    When the good king was buried, Sir Thomas the Earl of Moray took the government of the whole country, and all obeyed his commands. And the good Lord of Douglas had a case made of fine silver exquisitely enamelled. In it he placed the king's heart, and bore it ever about his neck, and diligently made ready for his voyage. He made his testament, and ordained how his land should be governed by friends till his return. This and all things else that in any way pertained to him he arranged with such good and wise foresight before his going forth, that nothing could have been amended.

    And when he had taken his leave, he took ship at Berwick, and with a noble company of knights and squires, put to sea, and sailed a long way to the south. He sailed between Cornwall and Brittany, and left the mainland of Spain to the north, and held his way, till he came to the great city of Seville. Though his men and he were greatly troubled with tempests at sea, they landed whole and sound.

    They arrived at Grand Seville, and a little afterwards brought their horses every one ashore, and took quarters in the town. Douglas carried himself right richly, for he had a noble company, and gold enough to spend.

    The King of Spain immediately sent for him, and received him right well, and proffered in great abundance gold and treasure, horses and armour. He would, however, take none of these, "for," he said, "he took that journey upon pilgrimage against God's enemies, that his toil might afterwards be for the saving of his soul. But since he knew the king was at war with the Saracens, he would remain there and help him loyally with all his strength."

    The king thanked him courteously, and committed to him good men who knew well the wars of that country, and the manner of them. Then Douglas went to his inn, and when the king had left him, he made a right great sojourn there. Knights of distant countries came in great crowds to see him, and right hugely honoured him. And above all men, the English knights who were there most sovereignly honoured and bore him company.

    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 3. Februar 2019
  14. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Auch wenn diese englische ÜS sicherlich dem Inhalt angemessen ist, so weicht sie doch tw. vom Originaltext erheblich ab. Klar, die goldene Regel der Übersetzungen: "So eng wie möglich, so frei wie nötig". Aber ich bin doch sehr ein Freund des Durchdringens von Quellentexten. Dazu gehört für mich auch die Sprache, die Wortwahl des Autors - hier natürlich der Metrik und dem Reim geschuldet, was sicher nicht immer vereinbar mit klaren und mitunter auch - im ereignishistorischen Sinne - wahrhaftigen Aussagen ist.

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