I can not forgive the Germans for the atrocities during World War II

K

Kaleb

Gast
Did the Germans deserve forgiveness for those crimes that were committed during the World War II?
 
- Who are the Germans?
- Shouldn't you differ between Germans and Nazis?
- Do you differ between Germans than and now? Because that's not totally clear to me.
- What about the Germans, who were killed or who were imprisoned in Concentration Camps?
- Yes, Nationalsocialism had considerable support in German (and Austrian) population. But there was a considerable opposition, too.
- What's about Collective Responsibility? Do you believe in Collectiive Responsibility? Or is guilt a personal thing?
 
https://www.stern.de/kultur/film/be...llektivschuld---bringt-beweise---3353732.html

1. Es gibt keine Kollektivschuld und da folgt die allgemeine Sicht wohl S. Wiesenthal.

2. Im Rahmen von Prozessen wurde versucht, "Recht" zu sprechen. Da die Ereignisse ohne Vorbild waren, mußte die Rechtsprechung gängige Rechtsgrundsätze berücksichtigen und auch der "Neuheit" der Kriminalität gegen die "Menschlichkeit" gerecht werden.

Die Rechtsprechung mußte den Straftaten der Täter juristisch gerecht werden und im Rahmen der Sühne auch den Erwartungen der Opfer nach Gerechtigkeit.

Ein schwieriger Balanceakt, der jenseits von juristischen Verfahren durch die Aussöhnung mit Gegner von damals politisch gelungen ist.

3. Es gibt eine Verantwortung dafür, dass es zu keiner Wiederholung von Genoziden kommt. Diese Verantwortung betrifft nicht alleine Deutschland, sondern betrifft die Durchsetzung universeller Menschenrechte.

4. Es gibt eine Verantwortung dafür, dass Opfer entschädigt und Raub und Diebstahl rückgängig gemacht werden. Da liegt wohl noch einiges im Argen.

5. Ob einzelne Personen - noch Heute - "den Deutschen" nicht vergeben wollen oder können ist subjektiv nachvollziehbar, aber weder relevant für die Rechtsprechung noch für den Prozess der Aussöhnung insgesamt.

Dabei ist zu betonen, dass viele überlebende Opfer des Holocaust eine sehr aktive Rolle als "Zeitzeugen" bei der Mahnung und Aufklärung über die NS-Zeit geleistet haben.
 
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Recently I saw a street poll in German cities, I was simply amazed that the Germans, especially the young ones, knew absolutely nothing about the war, about the blockade of Leningrad, about the Battle of Stalingrad, about the destruction that their ancestors brought. Indeed, in fact, most of the inhabitants of Germany are descendants of the Nazis, since in the thirties, most Germans supported Hitler (about 90 percent of the population), there were very few opponents of the regime. When I talked about this with a professor from Germany, he argued that ordinary Germans were not to blame, because they simply obeyed the order. It turns out that if they tell you to kill and you do it, then responsibility is removed from you because it was an order. But this is not an excuse! Two of my great-grandfathers were tortured in concentration camps, and I am just offended that modern Germans do not know anything about this, but live and enjoy their wealth and arrogantly look at others. I believe that people should feel a collective responsibility for this, but as practice shows, ordinary people have long forgotten about it.
 
Recently I saw a street poll in German cities, I was simply amazed that the Germans, especially the young ones, knew absolutely nothing about the war, about the blockade of Leningrad, about the Battle of Stalingrad, about the destruction that their ancestors brought.
You shouldn't believe in street polls. Street polls are often stressed to show, how bad is German formation, especially in History. There was a comedian in Germany, who often used Street Polls to show, how stupid young people are, Stefan Raab. But this is not a depiction of the average youngster but to blame the most stupid ones.

German youngsters are confronted with Nazi (War) Crimes in Television, in German cities and in school.
In the subjects:
History: 9th/10th class and 12th/13th class (about 15 - 19 years of age)
German Language and Literature: from 4th class onwards to 13th class (9 - 19 yoa)
Religion or Ethics or (Practical) Philosophy: 5th - 13th class
Politics and/or Social Sciences: 9th/10th class to 12/13th class, depending the curriculum and depending the school:

There are religious schools, where you can not choose wether you take Religion or not and there are non-religious schools who have to offer Religion and Ethics or (Practical) Philosophy, where pupils can choose depending their religious beliefs, whether they participate in Religion or Ethics/Philosophy

If pupils in Germany don't habe any clue of Nazi (War) Crimes, that is not because of our curricula but because they talk during classes and practice "bulimia learning". You may doubt the indivdual didactical skills of the concerning teachers but not the curricula. There will be hardly a youngster, who didn't visit during his school career a concentration camp as Sachsenhausen or Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald or Dachau, or maybe Auschwitz or Theresienstadt, or maybe a less famous concentration camp in Germany. The extermination camps (as Auschwitz or Riga or Treblinka etc.) were built outside Germany.

Indeed, in fact, most of the inhabitants of Germany are descendants of the Nazis,
Well, there were many Nazis in Germany, in the last three Weimar republic elections, 37 % (July 1932), 33 % (Nov. 1932) and already after the taking over of the Nazis (January) in March 1933 (43 %), the last one wasn#t a free election any more: This is still not the half of the Germans who voted fascism. Much to much and for sure, during the following years the support of the Nazis in Germany increased. But there is no base to say "most of the inhabitants of Germany are descendents of the Nazis". So this isn't a fact, this is a factoid.

since in the thirties, most Germans supported Hitler (about 90 percent of the population),
Where do you take this numbers from? From November 1932 on, there is no more free opionion poll on this. And even the in freedom limited opinion poll, you might deduce from the elections in March 1933, when repression had already begun, with razzias, wild concentration camps and election campaign monopoly for the Nazis, gave the Nazis not the full support. The Nazis worse than the Eastern Germany communists, but the only elections, were a party got more than 90 % was in Communist Germany.

When I talked about this with a professor from Germany, he argued that ordinary Germans were not to blame, because they simply obeyed the order.
Well, this professor (in German we use the term professor only for the highest ranks in University, so this might have been a teacher), wasn't right, that's reducing responsibility to the Nazis. There were many Germans involved actively in German War crimes who weren't Nazis. But Command Emergency is a myth. A myth many Germans tend to believe in, because it is easier to deal with that. But that doesn't make them or their descendants Nazis.

It turns out that if they tell you to kill and you do it, then responsibility is removed from you because it was an order. But this is not an excuse!
That's correct.

Two of my great-grandfathers were tortured in concentration camps,
I am very sorry for your great-grandfathers suffers.

and I am just offended that modern Germans do not know anything about this,
As I already told you above in this commentary: Don't believe in street polls, they are not really representing average youngsters. I would even say:
Street surveys are usually not held somewhere, but in the commercial centers of the cities. The youngsters hanging out there, are usually those, who don't know what to do with their free time. So these might be even the least successful in school.

...but live and enjoy their wealth and arrogantly look at others.
Maybe you should rethink this. Although it is understandable, that, if your grandfathers were suffering German concentration camps, you don't a good relationship towards Germany, it is now you, who arrogantly look at others, because you are not differing between Nazis and Germans and not between Germany than and now.

Our state is de juridical successor of Nazi Germany and behaves like this. But. But If my father commits a murder. I am not a murderer. My parent's were born during the last World War. When it ended, they were 3 and five years old. I can say, that my grandparents were clean (I know this by the career of my mother's father, who didn't climb the professional career between 1933 and 1945, because he refused to be a member of the NSLB (Nationalsocialist Teachers Union), the parents of my father were catholic farmers in Western Germany. They sent my father's older sisters to a PoW-Camp nearby with Soviet PoWs to provide them with food. And when in Germany there was running the myth "we didn't know nothing", they said: "Of course we knew. Everybody knew." The Nazi government had the idea, to settle the catholic farmers of western Germany in Ingermanland (that's a term which has nothing to to with the term German/y, it's borrwod from Scandinavian languages), which was the area around Leningrad/Peterburg, because under the Nazi leaders there was the rumour, that the catholic farmers in western and northwestern Germany were especially renitent to Nazi ideology and they wanted du opress possible catholic opposition by dispersing it. The oldest brother of my father was as a soldier on the eastern front. After the war (although he lived until 1997) he never talked about the war. He refused to talk about that. So I suspect, that he was involved in War Crimes or was at least witness. My mother's uncle, the brother in law of the teacher who refused to be in the Nationalsocialists Teachers Union (NSLB), was a party member. After the war, he "converted" to the Christian Democrats and deprived my mother of her orphan's pension. His son was a Western German communist and artist. (Not a famous one, but he could live more or less by beeing an artist; artist was the profession, which would have annoyed my grand uncle the most.) Mess ups like these you will find in the most German families: Nazis, none Nazis, Nazis who didn't commit War Crimes and None Nazis who committed War Crimes...

I believe that people should feel a collective responsibility for this, but as practice shows, ordinary people have long forgotten about it.
This is not the fault of school but of neurology. There was a study in Germany about 20 years ago. There were German researchers, who wanted to research the family memory. So they sent their research assistents into the schools to talk about this with the pupils, to be invited to the pupils homes. Three generations: The generation, who lived as (young) grown ups during the Third Reich (1st G), their children (2nd G) and their grandchildren (3rd G). At first, it ws the 2nd G, that refused to take part in the interrogations, as we may assume, because they feared, to know something about their parents, they didn't want to know. Or maybe they even presumed, that their parents committed War Crimes. But the 1st G was generally okay with being interrogated. And than the researchers made an observation although members of the 1st G admitted openly, that they have had sympathies for nationalsocialism or that they didn't behave during the war in an ethically correct manner, their grandchildren, and in some cases even the research assistents retold the stories mitigating or even omitting the uncomfortable parts. So the researcher, Harald Welzer and Sabine Tschugall, explained this with the sympathy, the grandchildren and the research assistents felt for the 1st generationers. They betrayed themselves, because they didn't want the grandfather/the gentle older guy to be somebody who had sympathies for nationalsocialism in his former life. Welzer/Tschugall published that in the Book (the title beginning with a quote) »Opa war kein Nazi«. Nationalsozialismus und Holocaust im Familiengedächtnis (2002).

The twelve years of the 1000-year-Reich are the most considered years of German history.
 
@Kaleb

First of all I strongly recommend the posting done above by @thanepower, dealing e.g. with "Kollektivschuld"/collective guilt.

Secondly you are writing in a history board which has a broad view on topics such as Second World War and Third Reich. Additionally a lot of postings in the Q&A section come from students/pupils concerning these topics.

Over all in my opinion Germany's general public is fully aware of things happened during the first half of 20th century. Culture of Remembrance is a factor in german politics.
 
Did the Germans deserve forgiveness for those crimes that were committed during the World War II?
Asking whether they did deserve it, needs to point at a time. Did they deserve it; 1948, or 1957, or 1989?
If you ask, do they now deserve such mercy?, it is an other matter.
Because times are all ways changing, as do minds of people over generations in a floating world.

I did not kill or torture your grandpa, but my grandpas probably helped to make that happen.
Guilt is not heritable, but responsibility remains to be so.
Atrocities are not to be forgiven, as well as denials of lessons to be learned and welcomed.
 
Atrocities are not to be forgiven, as well as denials of lessons to be learned and welcomed.

Well, in our language we say vergeben und vergessen [1] or alternativly vergeben aber nicht vergessen [2]. On the other hand, we have the legal principle Mord verjährt nicht [3]. Of course, it is not the subject of historians, to forget and War Crimes are to be persecuted.

[1] Forgiven and forgotten
[2] Forgiven but not forgotten
[3] Murder is not time-barred.
 
Thank you all for the answers, especially El Quijote for such a detailed explanation. Sorry for some of the less pleasant words in my previous post.

"Asking whether they did deserve it, needs to point at a time. Did they deserve it; 1948, or 1957, or 1989?
If you ask, do they now deserve such mercy ?, it is an other matter "

In general, compared with what the Germans brought to the occupied territories, the events of these years (1948, or 1957, or 1989) simply fade against the background, and the suffering of the locals is insignificant.

Of course, the past must remain in the past, generations are changing. When I was in Berlin, I was very surprised how different Germans can be, and indeed this city is striking in its diversity. Although in the same Dresden the atmosphere was completely different and the people I met were no longer so friendly as in Berilin.
 
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